Holland challenges Grayling: Why are all the Humanist conferences in Christian countries?
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- Опубликовано: 19 окт 2024
- Historian Tom Holland argues that the values of Secular Humanism owe their existence to Christianity, and has brought along a list of past Humanist conferences as evidence for AC Grayling.
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This is awesome! Please upload more clips from this debate. It’s very shareable
I would love to see holland have a discussion with sam harris, might be interesting
He loves Christian principles so long as he can tell himself that they aren’t Christian
I can't get enough of Tom Hollland he couldn't keep his laugh in. I have enjoyed honest analysis of history so much I have bought his book Dominion.
Most humanist conferences are actually held in secular Scandinavian countries.
Those are historically Christian countries. That's Holland's point. The very idea of the "secular" comes from Christianity.
@@jacobmayberry1126 Those were historically pagan countries too. So what? The word secular means "not connected with religious or spiritual matters". Christianity or any other organized religion cannot be "secular" by definition. Also, secularism in practice has existed before Christianity. Ancient Greece is a good example.
@@betsalprince Appealing to definitions is probably the most superficial treatment of this subject you can give. You should actually look into Tom Holland's in-depth historical treatment of the secular concept instead of just appealing to a contemporary dictionary definition because the idea of the secular is a very Christian (but mostly Protestant) concept.
Ancient Greece was not secular by any stretch of the imagination. Tom Holland has written several books on the ancient Greco-Roman world, and he definitely would not agree.
@@jacobmayberry1126 I'm not simply "appealing" to a dictionary definition. I'm using words how most people use the word today. That's just how language works. Historically, the word secular was not even related or linked to religion, but was a freestanding term in Latin that would relate to any mundane endeavor. I can easily dismiss your comment by saying that you're appealing to a peculiar definition of secularism that somehow involves Protestantism.
"Secularism in practice has existed in Ancient Greece before Christianity" is not the same thing as "Ancient Greece was a secular nation". I was specifically responding to your assertion that the very idea of secular comes from Christianity, which isn't true. Btw, Tom Holland has no historical training. He's an author with a passion for history, not a historian with a passion for writing.
@@betsalprince "Tom Holland has no historical training"
There are plenty of independent researchers that have demonstrated that they are capable of producing competent scholarly works that are worth taking seriously despite their lack of credentials. Holland's work is taken seriously by other historians and hand waving away his work for that reason alone is silly. His work has been published by respected presses like Anchor which is part of Knopf. Both of which are known for producing scholarly works.
Again definitions of words matter far less than the real world scenario the word is meant to describe. The word "secular" is meant to describe a society where there is an attempt to clearly delineate between religious and non-religious spaces.
Historically, no societies made such attempts until Christianity came around. It started with Catholicism but it wasn't fully fleshed out until Protestantism gained prominence. That is what the historical records shows, and hand waving away Holland's work due to his "credentials" is silly when he's already demonstrated he can hang with the best.
And even after the brutality of WWII the allies rebuilt the countries of their former enemies. This goes to macro intention.
Holland is the one who is ”most” right (Grayling managed to get one or two points during the whole debate), but it always gets messy when westerners debate as they are both in the western ”fish bowl”, borrowing a metaphore from Holland. Protestants bash on Roman Catholics in the same manor as humanists bash on Christianity as a whole (I am not Roman Catholic btw). It is like a watching a teenager rebel from his/her parents. Fast uninformed out of context knee jerk and meme style attacks. Protestants are in denial of that they are still very Roman Catholic in many ways of thought as they are still in the western Church. They just took the soliphism, legalism and nominalism that started to develop in the West before and during scholasticism, and ran with it. You see this now how protestant apologetics are starting to revert into Thomistic arguments. And Pope Francis usually talks like a Lutheran and sometimes even an Arian. It is pretty much the same paradigm just as socialism, conservatism and liberalism are of the same paradigm (Revolutionary idealism aka ”enlightenment” i.e. the true dark ages) Even if they might appear very different to you, it is because you are part of this paradigm.
The Eastern Church had its innovations (heresies) during the first centuries and schisms came from it (Far Eastern and Oriental Churches) and even apostacy (Islam) came from this. Same thing has been happening in the western Church during the 2nd millenium.
That is, there was a switch or a flip. The Eastern Church came more and more to their senses and upheld Orthodoxy and the West started to ”get unlucky” in their thinking and straying away from the rock they used to be.
(Don’t confuse East with Far East.)
Protestantism is a modern Nestorianism or Marcionism. And Humanists are Arians (on crack) and have become heretics to the degree they no longer call themselves christians, similar to how muslims were heretics who simply stopped calling themselves christian (read St John of Damascus for a 8th century review)
Impressiv..thanks you..
Bernardo Krolo you can’t really blanket Protestants as Nestorian because A: that’s ridiculous and B: there is huge difference in opinion amongst Protestants about... everything. An Episcopalian and a Presbyterian are both Protestant, but they probably have less in common with one another than they do with Catholics. According to your logic we can blanket Catholics and Protestants together as Christian and ignore those differences as well. I’m all for protesting Protestant ideas, but we have to come at it with the perspective that no one is ever going to be perfectly right and each school of worship has its own justification and drawbacks.
@@Isaiah2517 If there is a single impulse that unites Protestantism, it's the notion that God is outside his creation in important ways. At one extreme it leads to ideas like total depravity, with humanity as puppets of a capricious creator with no power over their salvation, to the more common desire to make biblical truth match sceptical materialism, that is so evident in progressive Anglicanism.
I enjoyed some of your comment. Although your Marcionism reference is also ridiculous. I assume your loyalties lie in the East since your knee did not jerk in that direction.
2:41, now wait a minute here, when temujin was rampagin through china he was loving his brothers, not the chinese tho, jesus said love your enemy, not just your brother.
Genghis Khan wasn't Chinese and didn't exist in the 2nd century BC. He's talking about a different king. And I've got to say, Jesus saying "love your enemy" is quite stupid. If a person came and massacred your entire family, would you love him. How absurd!
There’s a reason why we have these debates and LGBT marches and socialist movements in the West in what was Christendom
And not in China, and not in the Islamic World or any where else
I too have come too the same conclusions as Tom Holland, we owe so much to Christianity as a whole over the centuries from Social norms, laws and legal codes, political structures, etc.
And i would say that christianity got its moral standards from human beings in the first place.
@@willd6215 Then why are Christians so uniquely loving and noble and things?
@@20july1944 ha
@@willd6215 But why are we? Why are the wealthiest and freest and most loving (in the sense of generosity) societies all Christian?
@@20july1944 slaves probably. After all the bible openly condones it
Love Tom Holland's expression as Grayling is talking :-)
Realy? There are no humanist conferences in countries like Japan or South Korea? And Mr Holland, many of those countries you cite are countries that are secularized countries, and many are countries in which Christianity is in decline..
Ikr. If anything, the fact that so many Humanist conferences take place in so-called Christian countries shows that Christianity is in decline.
MORE TENDER THAN CHRIST? This guy is off his rocker!
Yeah sure. That's why buddhist Nepal and India are SO awesome with their "common shared humanity" Typical academic: no practical use in the outside world
Who is Christ? Same god you find in the Old Testament? Where Jesus ordered Moses to killled and rape children?
@@zaheidiqbal1 did you even read that part? Where did he say rape the women and children? Did you know what they were doin in those cities before they killed them. God is immoral for doing something or he doesnt intervene. Right? Why does god let those people live who kill and do evil he sucks he doesnt do anything and when he does kill them he is immoral. Nice logic sir.
Zuhud Deen I presume you are Muslim and learnt this rehearsed script from your imam or mosque. Tell me I'm wrong. Now you should understand why the Holy God of Israel would order the killing of a group of people. Keep in mind that before God wiped out humanity with the flood in Noah's time, He gave mankind 100 years to repent but they didn't. Even better, and in line with His character which is merciful, He gave evil devil worshipping nations like the Midianites and Amalekites about 400 years to repent but what did they do? They said "ain't nobody got time for that". Consider Sodom and Gomorrah, same thing. However consider Nineveh, another evils wicked people. God warned them AND THEY LISTENED and were spared. Sad truth is, 2000 years after His grace, mercy and salvation have been given us, most people are like "ain't no one got time for this". My friend, it's not by chance you're reading this. The Good Shepherd Jesus Christ loves you and wants you to know and follow Him. Will you listen?
@@zaheidiqbal1 so, that means your god allah is NOT YHWH the GOD OF PROPHET MOSES.....coz your allah like to kill men and rape their women and children who are not submitted to Muhammad the rapist hyoersex pedophile prophet that is set by his allah to be the best of example of mankind
Because Christian countries are the only ones that make humans comfortable enough to forget God.
Proverbs 30:7-9
“Two things I ask of you, Lord;
do not refuse me before I die:
Keep falsehood and lies far from me;
give me neither poverty nor riches,
but give me only my daily bread.
Otherwise, I may have too much and disown you
and say, ‘Who is the Lord?’
Or I may become poor and steal,
and so dishonor the name of my God."
Beating the Drum of Love
Amen
There's a reason for that; religious war. In order for Secular nations to exist, wars were fought among religious groups. In the U.K., Norman invaders killed off most of the Pictish and other native tribes. In the U.S., radical Christians waged Genocide on the indigenous tribes. Name one nation where Christians did not fight to establish a nation.
The only nations without militaries are islands, and some rely on military support from nations with large Christian populations.
Also, Proverbs 23:13 says to beat your don with a rod, and that he won't die. What about children with Hemophilia, like Queen Victoria's, or children with Sickle Cell Anemia?
@@rustlingbushes7678 " radical Christians " Interesting. I think you mean "humans".
"Name one nation where Christians did not fight to establish a nation. "
Name one nation where any group of people did not fight to establish. You think Pictish and other tribes were not fighting each other over land and resources?.....
Fighting is human nature and does not reflect Jesus Christ, who is God. It reflects the heart of man, which is exactly what the Bible says. You know what happened when the Israelites did not obey God? War and strife. God told them to serve Nebuchadnezzar, because they did not obey. SERVE him, not go to war with him. God is perfectly just and perfectly good.
How arrogant of Christians to take credit for human compassion, given the fact that human altruism and empathy predate it by hundreds of thousands of years.
It's not altruism as a general notion but an altruism that asserts the inherent equality of all human beings. That latter assumption is the one on which Western society is founded and it is ultimately predicated on the Judeo-Christian notion of the Imago Dei and the implications of the sacrifice of Christ.
Nathan Fosdahl that equality only comes from Paul who never met Jesus. And in another one of Paul’s writings, he says that women shouldn’t speak in church and slaves should obey their masters. He’s cherry picking. Jesus called gentiles dogs and said he was only sent to save Israel. Tom clearly has a Christian agenda.
The Macallan the things I posted that Jesus and Paul said go against humanism. You have contempt for humanity if you really believe what you posted. How is what Jesus and Paul said good if you’re a Christian? Jesus used a racial slur and Paul was a misogynist.
The Macallan by which means do you choose to follow a verse and not follow another verse? When Jesus calls the gentile woman a dog, why don’t you do the same? When paul says women should not speak in church, why do you not enforce that? Because morality does not come from the Bible. You are choosing what to follow due to the evolution of human morality. Take the good from the Bible and leave the bad, just like with every other document.
Nathan Fosdahl morality is not borne from religion. It predates it by millennia.
Tom Holland rocks, he has come from the other side so he knows their thinking is flawed.
His credibility is gone !
Lol, love the replies here
@@deanodog3667 why? because he doesn't agree with you?
@@nickcorne6407 because he's biased!
@@deanodog3667 towards what? He isn't a christian. It's on the basis of his work which is basically his book of 600 pages.
On this Platform Can you Get/bring Jordan Peterson with Hamza Yusuf or Daniel Haqiqatjou.?!
Professor A.C. Grayling's argument is simply that Christians weren't the 1st humans to demonstrate compassion, care, and concern for neighbors. It is clear that the appropriation is by Tom Holland, who states (rather arrogantly and even raises his voice at one point) that humans in Western cultures would not have these traits without Christianity. Highly dubious claim. I wish Tim Holland had been around to debate Christoper Hitchens on this topic.
your initial observation is correct my friend, all he is saying is that they were not the first, but the problem is most of those suffer from precisely the same problem as humanism, and that is a want of ontological grounding for their morality, and a chronological and philosophical interdependence on the religions that preceded them.
PS: given your stance that we are essentially sentient bags of liquefied stardust, what precisely is your objection to arrogance my friend? ☺
Follower: Why are Christian nations both the most humane and the wealthiest?
Are you an atheist?
Really? Was you around when the first Humans existed? Did you witness their behavior? So lets examine your assertion real close. The Early life of Humans.
Greeks. They tossed the lame. Deformed over the cliffs at birth. The unproductive and weak were used as nothing less then cannon folder. To train the Strong. The Roman empire. Used them as sport. As they first take you by force. Then toss you into an Arena to die for sport.
Then lets see Asia. They simply killed everybody in their path. As they did nothing but practice for war and combat. That included animals. As Genghis Kong lust for Murder damn near destroyed the Asian Continent. It sure as hell Crippled it for the next 800 years.
Now the laws you enjoy today from a position of Comfort. Behind that Keyboard. Brought to by the Hebrews, As they had laid out how humans are to behave 2500 years before Jesus Christ even existed. And they spelled it out using words. As words have meaning.
So no Christopher Hitchen's would not agree with you. He even talked about the Contributions that Christianity had given us. He just rejected the story of the Resurrection. Go ask his brother. Whom is still alive. He tells you the same thing. As your "Highly dubious claim" is so full of holes. It's not even funny. You made it up. Then used Special Pleading to Hitchen's. To cover for it. And I'm not even religious. But I'm not stupid either. Why we print books.. So people can learn.
Thank You
@Jonathan Archer I don't blame nothing And don't speak for me either.
I'm not some public schooled idiot. As the earliest records show humans propensity to murder. Why we have standing Armies. Judges. Juries. Police. Jails. Prisons. To keep them locked up. As they would steam roll your ass for a pair of shoes. And that is right now.
And 99% of those laws were written in Hebrew 4500 years ago. The 90% of the world has implemented into their laws. As the Jews got it right. People have value. Outside that of what anybody or any State can give you. And I enjoy them everyday. Why America was the first country to finally rid their country of Slavery. Involuntary servitude was not left to the State or Politicians. As they have their own interest at heart. That being cheap labor. Till you die. Then they go get the next slave.
As England did not repeal their laws on slaves till 1998...Europe had only drafted the Human rights act 1950's..
So no.. Humanist ideology didn't give us value. The laws the Hebrews left us did. 4500 years ago. It took that long to spread to the world. In some places the Communist still practice humanist ideology. They shoot you in the back of the head. Then harvest your organs to sell. Why you have 100 Million screaming Christian Chinese. The Communist hunt them down and kill them.
Now beat it. I don't have to be religious. To see most arguments are based on a Bigots Assertion. It gives them Purpose.
Good Day
That Plato, Aristotle (the Greeks), the Far Eastern philosophers, etc. were able to come to conclusions about human dignity and thus pave the road for modern secular Humanism is not an impediment to the notion that classical Humanism has it's root in Christianity...
... Christianity has always taught (Aquinas) that there are two books: the Book of Nature (reason, philosophy, science) and the Book of Scripture (the Bible). That humans -- made in God's image, however fallen -- are able to discern universal truths about human-nature, the soul, dignity, rights, etc. doesn't contradict Christianity. The Bible isn't the only source of knowledge on reality, but it does give the "Divine stamp of approval" _on human reason_ -- Scripture confirms human reason in terms of these humanistic truths. It's both/and, not either/or.
and aristotle believed that there were humans who were made to be slaves.
I have Dominion in my shelf, I cried.
Christianity is a product of humans/human nature as is humanism. Different religions and cultures have all contributed towards human rights, ethics etc.. Christianity made it's own contribution and humanism is now doing so. Humanism utilises past discoveries from many religions and philosophies, it takes us another step forward, disregarding the bad bits from previous contributions.
Daz: shall we continue our cosmological discussion?
I don't remember where we got except that you "didn't know" and "didn't know" and "didn't know."
@@20july1944 yea I like to be honest. You also don't know, you just have belief. If the top cosmologist dont know, it follows that I wouldn't also.
@@Daz19 I like being honest as well.
Do you think matter and energy are all that exist?
@@20july1944 Depends. There's mysterious less understood phenomena. Such as gravity, dark energy, dark matter, antimatter.
There may or may not be more fundamental properties than what is currently known. So I can only say as far as we know x exist, may or may not be all there is.
You?
@@Daz19 True -- dark energy and dark matter may exist.
Antimatter and gravity clearly exist, but gravity isn't EM energy like heat and light, right? Antimatter is just like matter but the polarities are reversed, so it's not mysterious in any way and has no spooky powers.
Are dark matter and dark energy subject to thermodynamics?
I watched their debate about whether we have our values from Christianity or not, now I wonder if this is the same debate or some other, 'cause I don't remember them bringing it up...but, to be honest, and I'm often defending Christianity, this doesn't show anything about Christianity...it actually shows much more about secularism, because Christian countries have undergone secularism, while Muslim ones haven't...you could have such conferences during the Middle Ages, and, frankly, you would get away with them in Muslim countries back then...there are atheist scholars from the Muslim world, speaking openly about their lack of belief, back then...
I didn't watch this clip, but the question in the video title is what I'm addressing...I don't think this shows anything more than that Christians have benefited from a "put aside" of religious values, which Islam had in the past (when Christianity didn't)...I'm sure he's going to say Christian values are more tolerant...it's all about culture, and there was a time when the Christian world was much less tolerant than the Muslim world...that demonstrates there's something other than the religions themselves at play...
And it's not just about such tolerance, they were advancing science and mathematics, the Muslims, at à time when the Christian world was wallowing in ignorance...I mean...they had some women scholars, I forgot in which city with the extensive library and scholars, etc...
At the time, all of that was unthinkable in Europe...
In Christian Europe...
I mean...I'm an atheist, but I often play the devil's advocate for Christianity, but this is clearly not due to Christianity....
Correlation isn't causation those cities he mentions are all first world countries that have strong and "prosperous" economics. The funny thing is that those nations aren't christian but secular nations.
Youre right how are they even christian when there secular and most people adopt the liberal moral views of the harm principle
Or why did the enlightenment happen lol
Illithid Hunter - even though some of the cities he mentioned are secular today it doesn't mean that they don't live by Christian values. You don't have to be a Christian to live by it's ethics. So Tom's point still stands.
@@luciano1984able Can you still call christian thought? Because what he is doing is claiming those are christain value therefore everything is base on christianity which is false.
Illithid Hunter - when you take a look at the meaning of humanism what it entails (kindness, compassion, equality, community etc.) It is undeniably Christian as that's exactly what Jesus taught through his ministry. In the west in particularly we get our values through Christianity.
@@luciano1984able That false because Kindness, compassion, equality, and community are all universal behavior from social species like ours. You can also find other religion that also includes and promote that behavior like hinduism, and greek mythology that happens before christianity was even formed in.
Putting women and heritics on bonfires is very forward thinking also religious persecution and terrorising free thinkers !
Stalin: *laughing*
@The Macallan who mentioned atheists ?!
@The Macallan hypathia , giordanio bruno , copernicus, Galileo etc weren't neccessarily atheists,christianity is a curse pal and is responsible for the fall of Rome and the dark ages!!
@@hebera.carrillo2049 what about stalin ??
@@deanodog3667 Rome was also the dark ages. When the empire was corrupt enough, it fell to marauding tribes of Goths.
The main reason secular humanism emerged in Protestant countries had nothing innately to do with Christianity itself. Its like a poor way of reading statistical results ie people who eat chocolate do better on an IQ test etc... Protestant countries allowed the independent reading of the bible, this led to biblical criticism and critical thinking about the text. ie Basically we had a big fight over religious authority - text verses tradition - in western Europe called the Protestant Reformation that led to ugly things like the 30 years war but ultimately allowed secularism to emerge. Secular humanism was as much a complex "accident" of history as say democracy emerging in England!
Yea Its more like post enlightenment values
The rise of Protestantism had two effects. It promoted biblical literalism, the idea that the language and meaning of the text was transparent and universal. This is manifestly not the case. The books of the bible contain law, allegory, poetics, history among other modes of address, which require interpretive expertise. This coincided with a burgeoning scientific world of reductive materialism, the idea that reality was reducible to its constituent parts, including, ultimately, humans which were atomised biological entities whose conscious processes were imaginary (epiphenomenal).
This is counter to the previous orthodoxy that humans were connected at fundamental levels of consciousness and belonging. Humanism is an attempt to square the circle of a drive for meaning, with a background narrative of absolute meaninglessness. Philosophically, it is doomed to failure. It's a placeholder that allows other fashionable presuppositions to be maintained.
@@borderlands6606 Well put - I think there is a great deal of truth to what you say. That's one reason I have sought to take solace in figures such as Giordano Bruno and Baruch Spinoza, who don't neatly fit into a pre or post Christendom or Enlightenment category. Philosophers who offer us a monistic outlook, giving us, I would argue, a continuity between a late-medieval /early-modern world view and our own, whilst addressing many of the deficiencies in modern humanism.
What a stupid and ahistorical question. Christianity is a theological belief system not a moral philosophy anymore than it is related to primitive claims about how best to please god and that has nothing to do with any useful moral philosophy so much as it does the argument as to whether or not you are eating Jesus or a wafer and in Europe under the Christian humanists like Thomas more you where apt to burn for holding the wrong belief. The Protestant Christian sectarian government was harsh in its handling of catholic the population and gave proof if any was needed after centuries of church backed feudalism to the claim that religion is not a sound basis for morality in government and thus the secular humanists gained ground until they were able to establish constitutions such as the one in France in witch secular humanism must feel very much at home.
He points to Greece where Aristotle and Plato came to believe in one God, even if not a Personal one, and Mozi in China, who believed there was one heaven who created the world with a singular order, as the basis for humanism. Neil DeGrasse Tyson points to Mozi in the Cosmos reboot too, but ignores his monotheism.
Atheists cannot even be honest enough to admit that science and humanism never arrive in the world without monotheism.
James Skene correlation ≠ causation
@@vesper8385 Correlation plus all historical facts prove causation.
At this point, Tom is just being pig-headed by not becoming a Christian
The Normans invaded "Britain", and abolished Slavery through Genocide. Don't forget the History of Christian Imperialism. Regardless of whether God is real, brute force colonised the isles. These were Christians, not Picts, Vikings or Atheists.
@my3stooges, what's real Christianity?
@my3stooges, there are over 30,000 denominations of Christianity. Which one is correct?
@my3stooges, so why not Catholicism?
@my3stooges, they studied Jesus' teachings, and the whole Bible.
@my3stooges, injustice and cruelty are commanded in the Bible. 2 Timothy 2:12 says that women are to be unequal to men. Is that just?
Human rights are not judeochristian, according to the bible, jews are the chosen people. How is that for universal? Humanism is not godless christianity, it is godless ethics, period.
Humanism: morality without the obscenely profitable governing body.
THAT is their beef with it.
But aren´t there a atheist humanism, and a protestant humanism and different types of humanisms ? Or is the point that all humanisms comes from Christian thought ?
As far as one can tell, humanism is the metaphysical branch of materialism, for which all notions of a higher power are toxic. The consistent response to materialism should be nihilism, but the problem of conscious awareness keeps getting in the way.
Hi Tom, you are clutching at straws here as the humanist conferences you mention are not happening in Christian countries, they are happening in democratic counties. The common identity those countries you mentioned have is liberal social democracy. Protestantism is not a common identity between them. Secular Humanism is not Protestant light or any religion light. It’s just Humanism and for Humanism to be most effectively put into wide practice across society has required liberal social democracy that is secular and humanist. And of course as you know, democracy is not a Christian concept or invention.
The Vatican State did not rate a mention in your list, but this is not surprising as it is not a democracy of any kind let alone a liberal social democracy.
How come non-Christian countries manage to flourish so well?
@The Macallan
Give me a break! Believing in magic never did anyone any good!
@The Macallan
No I meant magic, magically creating a magic superman out of nothing.
There are plenty of plausible big bang models!
@The Macallan
It's called being circumspect!
ie requiring a standard of evidence.
@The Macallan
Sorry, I missed where you said god came from?
@The Macallan
I knew you'd say that, even though there's no evidence, it highly unparsimonious, it's a logical dead end and there are much better explanations!
The Ten Commandments:
God gave a day of REST to slaves, masters, foreigners ..... and ANIMALS ! ( Sabbath)
What enormous dignity He gave man and animals.
Unheard of in the ancient world, and the first law in the world to protect animals !!!
No other Lawgiver did this in the ancient world.
No other Lawgiver in the ancient world died to take punishment for mans Sins either.
Take God out of the picture and what you’re left with is people trying to sound like Him !! And they all sound so pompous!
Which portion of the Christian material emerged from a vacuum?
@Donald McRonald
None of it, it's all true and has always been true.
Don: shall we continue our cosmological discussion? I don't remember where we got to.
@@20july1944 You claimed it appropriate to split the entirety of existence into two separate categories; Creator and Created. I asked of you to demonstrate the mode of your separation, but you could not comply. What have you to say today?
@@donaldmcronald8989 Ah. You're that idiot.
The Creator obviously existed BEFORE His creation.
The Creator was the first thing/first cause.
@Sticky Steve Prove what?
I think both participants made very good points. One thing not mentioned: very devout leaders of Christian countries/armies engaged in a lot of barbarism. Take William 1st of England (William the Conqueror). Very devout - but he ordered the cutting off of hands and feet of those he considered a threat. Ultimately responsible for tens of thousands of deaths and a lot of starvation and misery. He caused the ruination of a prosperous country just to further his own ambition. And he truly believed that God was on his side.
OK I understand how to play this.
1. Say Western values are judeo christian.
2. When a counter example is provided, insist those values are also judeo christian..
got to go back to Erasmus and Thomas Moore Theocentric Humanism on every form of epistomolgy .
Christianity at its best is only our innate humanism with bells on!
Francesco Petrarca
born July 20, 1304, Father of humanism and Cleric of the church.
Humanism came from Christianity, end of story.
Atheism possesses nothing original, not even the their most cherished of ideas like of separation of church and state which finds its origins as we know it today in the Protestant Reformer Martin Luthers works the doctrine of two Kingdoms. Atheism only holds to a cherry picked mix of bastardised versions of previous world views whilst denying the foundation upon which they were all justified and established.
Atheism is excellent at revisionist history though.
Some Christian Guy you’re delusional and uninformed, sorry.
So what Holland is saying, is that Christianity gave us a middle class white male northern Eurocentric view of the world. What a coincidence, I come from that cultural heritage, so I get to pat myself on the back for that too... hm...
Not necessarily but you might try feeling some gratitude for your cultural heritage.
@@maryanna348 Sorry, I'm having to infer the meaning of your comment. What does 'not necessarily' followed by your elaboration to gratitude mean?
@@pasquino0733 It means you don't necessarily get to pat yourself on the back for your heritage, but that instead of being cynical about it you might try being grateful for it.
@@maryanna348 What you are interpreting as cynicism I stated with an edge of hyperbole in order to make a point. Holland gives a very biased perspective on history and without any recourse to rigorous cross cultural analysis. I am not seeking to be cynical about European culture, I'm seeking to see it within the expansive context of world cultures. In fact, what could be less 'cynical' than that? What do you mean by being grateful? - in the context and value of what? I think you have to state the value of something first, before suggesting gratitude.
Hey! There are also the Muslim world and the communists countries. If you think is better there... sure, you are right!
Grayling looks stunned.😆
Humanism derives mostly from ancient greco-roman and enlightenment philosophical traditions - both decidedly non-Christian traditions. Core values like tolerance, compassion and self-negation are also not at all unique to Christian thought but are very prominent in Far Eastern religious traditions as well.
@Trolltician Medieval Christian society divided people into three estates and was overall rather collectivistic. Peasants had few rights compared to clergy and nobility. Individual dignity may have come up in Christian writings before the enlightenment but it was popularized by enlightenment thinkers - often against the churches when it came to civil rights and liberties.
So Tom's argument is that there have been lots of conferences relating to humanism therefore Protestant Christianity is responsible for the rise of humanism. The fact that Tommy can sell himself as a historian here on youtube shows that if you want to convince stupid people of something, youtube is where you can do it.
To suggest that the Greeks were not familiar with the writings of Moses is folly. Ne Timeas.
BOOM!!! Jesus preached about love, loved enough to give His life and then rises from the dead to prove that we can overcome death too if we trust in Him. But still humanism is better as some prefer to rot in a hole.... The blindness...
Well, i dont think much of a god who sends his son to be tortured and murdered to prove his love for me.
I think you missed Grays point. Everything Jesus was supposed to have taught us was already being practised well before.
@@GDKLockout You have a few things wrong with your comment but perhaps like so many, you most likely don't care about the facts. Jesus proves that He is genuine by rising from the dead. Prove that fact wrong and Christianity goes down. Nobody in antiquity can claim anything like that and no serious historian can claim that it did not happen. This my friend are facts. However if rotting in a hole (let alone Hell which is what Jesus claims He is saving us from) is your thing, then please go ahead.
@@remainhumble6432 You talk about "facts" whereas all you've done is recited your beliefs. You're also seriously naive if you think Jesus was the only character in ancient times who was thought to have risen from the dead. Please do some reading.
@@zeddeka I have. Unlike you I believe in what I studied and found it compelling. If somebody else rose from the dead then I would consider his story. I found nobody else like Jesus. You follow nothing but yet want me to agree with you. The facts about Jesus only got to us because they are true. Lies tend to die a natural death.
@@remainhumble6432 there is nothing special about jesus rising fron the dead. According to Matthew all the saints rose. Check out Matthew 27.52.
So either they were all gods sons and our saviours or rising from the dead is not proof of being gods son.
I was raised Catholic so could nearly recite the Bible for you. I always felt it was a mistake to insist on the Bible being factual, its a very weak position to try defend. Especially considering the conflicting stories in the gospels.
Surely the whole point is to take Jesus' lessons and try to live a more fulfilling life.
And to that end, Ill take my chances. Should i end up having to account for my lofe in a day of judgement, i know for a fact ill score higher that most church goers. I behave in a manor im sure jesus would have condoned, not because i fear hell or wish for heaven, i do it because of how it makes me feel.
It doesn’t matter what the label is, it matters what the ideas are. Using “country” as a measure is fallacious given Jews have only recently got one after Millenia, and while they may not use “humanism” as the label there are other ideas outside of Christendom that also, separately came up with the same or similar ideas to humanists.
Also, let’s not forget how Christianity behaved when it had state power. It wasn’t very humanistic then was it.
Toms smirk is so cringeworthy. I learn a lot from him, but he might be suffering the affects of “love bombing” from god believing Christians because they like what Tom is saying.
That is a weird argument- "let us all not forget that Christians/atheists /humanists are really bad when they have power" ...
This is pretty much the Biblical diagnosis of the human condition.
Yet it those countries of formerly Christendom that imposes "human rights" on rest of the world. Human rights does not exist in other religions and philosophies. If so, please name them. One misconstrues human behavior with teachings when people can simply ignore teachings. Such as how Haitians mix Voodoo with Christianity. By doing so, you totally ignore the core teachings and by extension, teachings don't matter. So if a rich person is greedy, call himself a Christian, is his greed bred of Christian assumptions?
When the US started bombing Iraq, the university of Baghdad had more feemale teachers than Harvard. So there are many factors at play with this suggestive and loaded title of this video
@The Macallan Please try to understand what I'm saying. There are many factors at play when discussing what nations do.
@@DWAGON1818 I'm curious as to where you found those numbers. Can't find them through google search.
I need more hands to face-palm with...
When someone says something wrong on so many levels you become speechless 😂😂
Would The Enlightenment ever have occurred in Western Europe if it had not first been infused with centuries of a Biblical ethos and the philosophes not had their education and thinking informed in a Biblically informed milieu?
What an amazingly dumb question...
Yes, yes - like the question "what compels the electron to stay in orbit?" And why is there something rather than nothing? I promise you you won't call the question dumb when it's your turn eventually.
@@everythingisvanityneverthe1834
Err
What???
@@alisonaizlewood475 Exactly. Now all you have to do is close your eyes and run straight forward - everything will be just fine...
@@everythingisvanityneverthe1834
Can you stop talking in riddles?
Wtf are you talking about?
@@alisonaizlewood475 Chocking...., suffocating....., blood everywhere#@$.....Pink ponies petrified polish parenthood
_Christian countries? are u kidding me? just name one (incl vatican city) which country rules base on christianity no wonder you get smashed by bart erhman_
Sure... there is no difference from countries in the West were Christianity was the dominant religions and those in North Africa and Middle East were Islam is the dominant religion.... no difference at all.....
Christian countries don't rule based on theocratic rules because Christianity as it is today isn't about laws or worldly state. Christian countries created secularism because the Christian view and origins stem from a completely different background compared to that of Islam or Judaism. "Religion" in the English language means something different from other cultures. Laws of the Temple for Jews, was their religion. Laws are the religion for Judaism and Islam. They are the laws of Moses and the laws of Muhammad. The commandments of Jesus are not viewed as laws by modern Christians but as commandments to the individual who seek salvation by choice. This is why Christianity and the culture it spawned eventually became secular due to the seeds of the Christian view of religion. And what Tom Holland means by Christian countries, isn't laws, but that of culture which is Christian for most of Europe, the US, New Zealand, etc. He is absolutely right about that.
It is obvious to me that if this philosophy can emerge in parts of the world that are not christian, it cannot be reliant on a christian foundation
Did it? Are the cultures of China, India and the Middle East permeated with love your enemyesque universal human rights? Did “Humanism” arise in those locations?
@@knowthycell of course
I don’t think Confucianism is the humanism he is claiming allegiance to.
@@knowthycell there are different strands of humanism of course but heuristics like the golden rule was promulgated in ancient China, India, Japan by people such as confucius, mahavira, gautama etc and it had nothing to do with Christianity. The same can be said for the roman empire and classical Greece.
Humanism is more than just the golden rule. But I’ll concede those humanisms could have their own origins, unaffected by Christianity. Western Humanism started out as a literal Christian movement.
Why was all the slavery and colonialism in Christian countries? Toms question makes no sense and doesn’t detract a thing from Humanism.
All the slavery and colonialism in Christian countries? What? Someone needs to renew his membership in the Ancient World History Club. Or get a refund.
Humanists like Thomas Jefferson and other “intellectuals” still owned slaves
Brian, you are either ignorant or a liar. Everybody had slaves. Everybody colonized. Tribes killing and enslaving each other is a common theme in history. Check basic history.
@@retrictumrectus1010 Perhaps I wasn't clear, but I meant slavery and colonialism in modern times (past 500 years) was every country engaged in "slavery and colonialism"? Ignorant or Liar; wow, false dichotomy much?
@@LiquidTurbo Slavery is alive and well today. The only historical difference is developed nations had ships that could sail further for trade.
Grayling is very nice in saying the other man is just saying things that are simply false.
No infact these human conditions and preferences predates Christianity.
This is because our innate, evolved humanist values managed to shine through the horrors of Christianity.
The elevation of a Jewish preacher to mythological status, imbued with humanistic values ensured its popularity and longevity.
Successful societies predated Christianity and it had no effect upon human flourishing, as is evident in population growth, which came very much later and for different reasons. (Mainly due to science).
What reason do you have for thinking we have "our innate, evolved humanist values"? Isn't that just the typical assumption that one's own culture is neutral? I think Tom is right is saying that our current values are contingent.
@@markaurelius61
As a social species we have values that enable societies to function.
This works from an evolutionary perspective and is seen in other social species where there is clearly a heavy reliance upon rules in order to survive as a group.
Science is directly tied to the theology of Christianity. There is no evolved humanist values that came from nothing. We have different cultures. Far more different than you realize. Tom Holland is only barely noticing the differences because like so many (in Western countries), he was taught to assume there is neutrality which is coincidentally tied to the Christian teachings of equality.
@@samuelmorales2344
Equality in the bible!??
Are you kidding???
Evolved humanistic values may come from nothing you could say, given a degree of random behaviour, but as with any Darwinian process, the behaviour is selected by the environment and cooperative and altruistic behaviour confer greater fecundity.
@@_a.z There is no science behind morality. That is laughable attempt to try to explain things. First of all, there is no rationality to morality. If you know history of humankind, or what people do around the world in the present day, you would automatically know that such explanation is nonsense. Equality came from the Bible from the interpretations of Jesus and how man was created in the image of God. There is no other philosophy or religion that states or even alludes to inherent equality the way Christian reasoning came up with. In the Bible communities of the country, such as America, these people accept and understand equality, because that is where it came from.
Brilliant!
Evidence??? Hahaha! Even sort of racist remark.
Why not take some psychedelics and see for yourself where these 'humanist' or 'Christian' ideas come from? It would solve the dispute for both of you.
In the Bible, using drugs is know as sorcery and it's greek translation is pharmakeia. Its where we get the term pharmacy from as well... But of course you'll end up believing just what you want to believe anyway.
@@jakeschwartz2514 "In the Bible, using drugs is know as sorcery and it's greek translation is pharmakeia. Its where we get the term pharmacy from as well... " Of course - and every Christian I know is quite happy to to take all kinds of Doctor prescribed medications. Tell me how the piece of paper turns that which is immoral into something moral.
"But of course you'll end up believing just what you want to believe anyway." And likewise with you. My belief is that molecules are tools, and thus can be used in both a moral and immoral way. The presence of a doctors prescription is not the dividing line between the two, but rather the intent of the person using them. If your intent is self-discovery, therapy, or the desire for insights into the nature of reality then their use is moral. If your intent is self-indulgence or simply for a 'high' or as a party enhancer then I would consider that an unwise use of these tools.
I'd recommend this perspective because it keeps us from being dogmatic about things we don't know about.
First guy: here’s my claim
Second guy: yeah but here are several examples of why your claim doesn’t hold water
Third guy: ah yes, but you see there is again my claim that I will continue to assert despite direct contrary evidence
Editor: yep, I think we should stop things right here
Its weak. Its not if the idea was concived, its how deep it sowed itself in the fabric of society. Theres simply no argument that christanity had the biggest impact
The second guy didn't provide any direct evidence. For several reasons. The biggest being that neither of the Traditions he quoted produced societies even remotely similar to the West. They're pretty much all heavy honor-shame cultures that have no substantive sense of individualism. That a people say "be compassionate to humans ane animals" is no proof of a humanist trend since even the dumbest child can say that. It's using lip-service to ignore the evidence of results.
@@Bakarost It isn't a bad argument at all. Such conferences almost always only happen in the places where they can originate and ground themselves. It also actually coincides with the evidence presented in the scientific paper "The Missionary Roots of Liberal Democracy", even down to the Protestant locations.
Even if Holland's thesis is right, this particular argument is really awful (though it is perhaps the least convincing that he presents).
Why awful?
It isn't a bad argument at all. Such conferences almost always only happen in the places where they can originate and ground themselves. It also actually coincides with the evidence presented in the scientific paper "The Missionary Roots of Liberal Democracy", even down to the Protestant locations.
all world wars were also mostly in christian countries :)
@The Macallan 1 - humanism also is a complex by product of individual liberalism, greek thought ...etc 2 - during the dark ages when christianity was the only player in the field it was responsible of horrendous atrocities !!
3 - So the christian element only can not be the element that explain humanism.
The ancient world, given the choice between their decades and centuries of war ending in slavery and imperialism and the short span of European "world wars" ending in freedom and an end to tyranny for the nations involved would have an easy choice to make, I think.
That happens when they value the government more than god.
srqs srqs Lol what a horrible justification.
@@noamtrotsky9601 These Christian countries are secular. What would you expect from a secular country? Of course deadly wars when a philosopher declares God is Dead and everybody followed suit. At least humanism can replace God, worshipping humans instead of worshipping God.
Tom holland is turning out to be jordan peterson lite. He seems to not understand that correlation is not causation.
Correlation MAY mean causation -- that's a separate point.
Why are they correlated if there's not a causal relationship?
Funny I was against the smug smiling dude on the left the whole time, till the absolute, and very abrupt, end.
The Right has it good for the Left knoweth not....🤔
Humanism is a superior moral system. We are in more advanced times than the bible. We have advanced
Read the gospel of Matthew, chapter 5, and weigh for yourself whether Jesus' teachings are less advanced than what we have now. I'll be intrigued to hear your response, Lawrence.
@@leytonorientdeutscher9540 oh there is some good morality in the bible. But it is also riddled with immorality. If you pick the best parts out then you can get some decent stuff. But there is so much barbarism as well
@Jonathan Archer I agree we have significant problems. But people live in much greater safety than in ancient times. Our laws protect life better than back then. There is great immorality in the bible...like murdering children and babies for example. It can be pretty horrendous
@Jonathan Archer you mention these things like they only exist in America, and only in modern times. Where do you get this idea that America is like a living hell? I have been in all 50 states and lived in 7 of them.
Are you starving to death? Do you get home invasions on a regular basis? Have you been robbed multiple times? Is rape a regular thing you see where you live?
It is easy to exaggerate. The fact is we live in general comfort and safety compared to ancient times. And my point was originally is our morality is better than the bible
@@lawrenceeason8007 you say there is barbarism in the Bible, but I think you'll find that the common thread is corrupt and sinful humanity committing atrocities out of pride and selfishness. And our laws protect life better? Our consignment of unborn children to the status of 'non person' facilitates the global mass murder of infants in the mother's womb. I hardly would call this the mark of an advanced and morally superior humanity that has emerged from the darkness of historic barbarism. Humanism essentially deifies impure, immoral men; a display of conceit like no other
Sure, christians are the good guys .... I wonder what god thinks about those statements .... :)
Are you an atheist, Jingle?
@@20july1944 I'm just a guy that wants to know, why humans believe and claim, that their believe is true. Why humans don't believe someone, who claims to have been abducted by aliens, but claim to know, that 2000 years ago a man rose from the dead.
@@Jingleschmiede Are you interested in what is actually true, or just why people believe things?
@@20july1944 The problem is, that there are many smart people who claim to know the truth. And it seems there are different truths. I suspect, you know the truth too ? :) Which truth is that ?
@@Jingleschmiede I'm interested in discussing God's existence using science, mainly cosmology and thermodynamics.
Do you agree we should rely on science when relevant science is available?
The point that Holland makes here is misguided and highly misleading to say the least. The reason that Christian countries host conferences that promote humanist style agendas both men agree with, is due to the fact that in such western countries the brutal excesses of Christianity have necessarily been severely tempered over the last couple of centuries, such that now the movement has little real influence in terms of the force it could once apply and ruthlessly enforce. This fact is what Holland seems to have conveniently forgotten. In other words Christianity has been forced to reform and behave itself and this force has come in the form of secular arguments and reasoning. But despite this Christianity still resists reformation to this day because this erodes its already severely weakened power base.
To be brutally honest it is Christianity that opposed same sex marriage amongst other progressive social policies and movements.
In short, the cuddly tolerant view of Christianity Holland promotes here has not come from the values of Christianity, but because it’s bigotry and morally judgemental excesses, which were previously exercised unchecked, have been forced into moderation by secular argumentation and reform movements.
It’s also worth recalling that no where in the bible is ethics ever discussed. It’s as if the entire subject of ethics and moral reasoning was totally unknown to the authors of the bible, which is surprising because if it’s true that the bible was inspired by god, then this god clearly knew nothing about ethics or moral reasoning. Oddly, it looks as if biblical morality originated directly from the barbaric moral reasoning and codes typical of the men living in the periods in which it’s 66 books were written.
pale rider Don’t make me laugh You don’t know a god exists let alone whether he likes or doesn’t like same sex marriage.
It seems to me not knowing either of the above leads you to express your own prejudices as if you were talking on behalf of a being whose basic existence you not only can’t demonstrate, but have no hope of demonstrating.
pale rider And other texts do that and more. You really should try reading more than one book and projecting your meaning into what’s written. It would help. :-)
@@plasticvision6355 Shall we continue our cosmological discussion?
Do you still claim energy has always existed?
pale rider Lol! You were the one claiming you knew what god likes and does not like. I didn’t say he doesn’t exist either, I said you don’t know that he does, let alone know what he thinks. You seem to need lessons in comprehension.
20july1944 I claim you can’t show it hasn’t. I’ll repeat this once again for fear of being boring. Your knowledge of the physics is childlike.
You refused to accept that Dr Craig refutes his own Kalam and fine tuning argument in arguing for the second coming using cosmological eschatology. As you will recall, this is where a quantum fluctuation occurs in this universe, leading to its instantaneous annihilation and its replacement by another universe with different constants.
While at least one such argument is on the table unrefuted, the god hypothesis simply does no stand a chance.
As in may have mentioned before nouns (in this case god) doesn’t explain anything, unlike real explanations that do.
So, for example, how does god ‘explain’ the Hamiltonian of this universe? How about the Higgs? You see not only does god not explain anything, because he can’t the hypothesis makes no predictions, let alone testable ones. The whole notion is a childish denial.
And didn’t we already talk about the logical impossibility (contradiction) of nothing ‘existing’? The philosophical (and theological) notion is a nothing but a poor joke, pun intended. It doesn’t even make sense as a proposition because the word ‘nothing’ doesn’t refer to anything. So in this case what looks superficially grammatically correct, is nothing of the sort.
Seriously, every time you’ve posted you’ve shown zero comprehension of either logic or the physics.
Ten commandments came before Maoist, and india baoist ! ...
Atheists look after number one which is sensible,they wouldn't give you so much as their nail parings,it's Christians who help other people even to the extent of bring annoying about it sometimes. I've never had any help,support or encouragement from atheists.
Jane Baker humanists do just as much if not more charity work than christians and their charitable organizations are more transparent, with the highest ratings.
Well I've not met any of the buggers,only the unkind,unfriendly ones. So there.
Holland sounds like a credulous child!
Lolzzz when christianity was in control we had inquisitions and witch hunts.
What are you comparing that period with? The Roman Empire?
We have inquisitions and witch hunts now in the secular left. The non-christian régimes carried them out as well, and killed millions, far above the death tolls of the inquisition and the witch hunts.
There are still witch hunts. Some are led by christians.
Can you point to any?
Correlation is not causation...
Correlation MAY mean causation -- that's a separate point.
Why are they correlated if there's not a causal relationship?
I think the argument from Holland is kind of flawed, even though i agree at certain points, because you get too go back and back, and suddenly is not christian no more. i would rather say: When you look at the bible, in its purity, there are so many passages about love, moral, ethics which you can apply today, in which we cannot say the same for other texts, of that era. People point too the philosophers and their morality, and i think that is overly exaggerated. because of the datings of these texts. (probably lots of spelling errors here. non english speaker.)
I agree, Holland does make some good points but I think he's a little too married to the idea that Christianity is the source of all positive morality in Western Civilization.
The dates of the new testament texts where long after the establishment of classical Greek philosophy which spread into Judea through the conquering of Alexander the Great.
The old testament texts do predate classical Greek philosophy, but the old testament is fundamentally an entirely different religion, far less morally progressive, that served an entirely different purpose in it's respective society.
It is often argued that the new testament is vastly superior in morality with the ideas of do unto others as yourself and turn the other cheek, as opposed to kill all homosexuals and various genocides of the Canaanites and subsequent sexual enslavement of their women and all that good stuff. The change with the times, so to speak, can be argued to be a derivative of the culture clash from the Macedonian Greeks and then subsequently the Roman empire. New ideas gathered from the franks, Gauls, and Celts all weaseled their way into our culture as well
@@He.knows.nothing Christianity is the founder of the modern world through demonstrable social and cultural influence. Humanists and everyone else seem to stand on the shoulders, as another commenter pointed out, in total indignation and ignorance of who it was that brought this enlightenment. Give Christianity what its due
@@baroukgari6077 I personally wouldnt go there, too say that Christianity is the founder. I would rather say that Jesus is along with the Bible. Because as Justin Thillens pointed out, there are many different cultures that clashed into the modern western world. A simple example of the Christmas celebration ( i know its a trivial example). I dont disagree with youre statement per say, i would just not use "christianity" at its core, because Christianity means so many different things.
That was why i stated above "bible in its purity".
Cruunchyy of course there is a massive influence other than Christianity in Europe, the obvious one being, Greek philosophy. but without Christianity, Europe could not evolve from the “alien” Roman civilization to the modern world.
@@baroukgari6077 yes i agree. but you could switch it on its head and say that christianity would never be a thing without the roman civilization, how easy it was for the first christians to travel around and talk about it
Of course it wasnt all easy (Nero), but it kinda all lined up for christianity too take over the roman world. and that wouldnt be possible if it werent for the conquests of the roman civilizations.
But im drifting into another argument, my point is, that christianity as a movement doesnt "deserve" to be named the soul of morals, etics and so on, but the bible and Jesus Christ does. do you see the distinction?